Oreimo

i didn't like how most of the female characters confessed to kyosuke at one point or another. i really dont enjoy harems, so i was happy that this never became a real harem, but the last confession was really incredibly bad. It didn't fit in with red head's character at all and felt way more like an after thought "gotta-catch-em-all" moment.
i'm also not sure about the ending, eg. their plan
the idea of "becoming intimate lovers for a short period and then going back to exactly how things were" has been around for centuries. and over that entire period of time it's worked exactly 0 times. even friends with benefits doesn't resolve ideally often. saying that you can go back from, what they think is, true love is just ridiculous and completely at odds with their fight-to-protect personalities.
but maybe the kosaka siblings understand that. so rather than be angry that the writer sucks and came up with a truly unrealistic ending, i'm going to make the assumption that this was a good choice for some reason. but i can't decide if there's a clear reason why.
originally I thought that maybe they decided that their dream of being together was impossible and so wanted to have it for a short period of time before letting the dream go, but nothing makes this add up. they've started fortifying themselves to never date anyone else; Kyosuke completely alienated his best and oldest friend for the sake of their love; his defence of their love makes it clear that he treasures it above anything else; Kirino decided to not travel abroad so that she'd never be far from Kyosuke; they, oh i don't know, fucking got married. the idea that them living the dream for a second is enough to satisfy them is really unsatisfying to me because it's not nearly adequate to who their characters are / have become and what they mean to each other. It's like watching a really good story that ends in complete and unexplainable silence. i don't require a resolution to stories, but this explanation denies their entire pseudo-existence.
my next thought was maybe this was something of a stop gap. they will only have these few moments of being together as significant others for the next X years, but once they're old enough to support themselves without relying on others they will resume. this theory seems a lot more realistic to the circumstances of everything, but even still it doesn't seem realistic to how things happened in the story. the way they made it sound, in the flashback of the promise and in the wedding, seemed very final. Too final to really suggest that it was a pause rather than an end.
The final scenes of the anime make things even more frustrating. Kyosuke uses his reward from their bet to kiss Kirino on the cheek, making her blush like whoa. at this point, it's pretty easy to see that the first "hit it and quit it" type solution ain't remotely possible, while the second seems unrealistic for their personalities.

If the second season was more like the first, ie more comedy / parody based, I wouldn't really care at all. But the second season makes you care if you want to enjoy it. To change the pacing back to the light-hearted nonchalance of the first season was shitty.

but maybe there's a good reason that I didn't think of... anyone else finish the show and want to comment with their take?

Judging from how season 2 was going i feel like thats where the OVAs will go though so im prepared to be disappointed

Kirino has never had a real relationship and is too young to decide her soulmate/love
So i think Kyosuke should back off so she can be with other people first so she can get a bit of experience and then decide after a couple years when shes older and had a few relationships
Like even if she confesses to him he should reject her for that sole reason, even though he does love her and would be hard for him to do, cause accepting is selfish and almost like taking advantage since shes naive
I think something like that would make for a good ending, rather then them getting together

for those wondering, it was "My Little Sister Can't Be This Cute."

hmm pat... that wasn't super well thought out

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Kirino has never had a real relationship and is too young to decide her soulmate/love
So i think Kyosuke should back off so she can be with other people first so she can get a bit of experience and then decide after a couple years when shes older and had a few relationships

i get the whole experience thing. obviously for you, and also for me, i like to make informed decisions. even a good decision isn't generally good enough for me without "data", or experience, to back it up. but this doesn't apply to everyone (and, for me anyways, it doesn't apply to everything) and it's a good thing it doesn't. some people are happy with what they have without questioning what they could have had. most of the people that I've met that are like that have, whether or not theyre aware of it at the time, an overarching philosophy where this mentality is kind of a side effect. it's not black and white or all encompassing ever though, some people question some things of some things while others do the same for other things.
with who kirino is now, there is absolutely more evidence that her character falls under the umbrella of "happy with what i've got if it's kyosuke." the show literally makes this point so many times that it gets repetitive. maybe you're right and her character would change hugely and fundamentally after a few years but nothing in the show supports that idea, most of the events actually oppose it. your opinion is going off of your personal experience and views, not the show.

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Like even if she confesses to him he should reject her for that sole reason, even though he does love her and would be hard for him to do, cause accepting is selfish and almost like taking advantage since shes naive

saying it like this is too condescending. you started out with opinions, but acting like you know how something will turn out / what the best course of action is for other people is obnoxious.

also what you're suggesting probably wouldn't even work for them. it's very mechanical and they're very emotional. their characters wouldn't be able to forget about everything between them, and so them having other relationships would really just be trying other relationships in order to confirm the validity of theirs, which isn't a good idea no matter how you construe it. i'm not sure what about that plan you thought would fit their characters or even be good for them...

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I think something like that would make for a good ending, rather then them getting together

this actually would fit okay as the motive behind their "arrangement." i have my own issues with their relationship but a very different take than you on what i think because of them
that kirino loved him continually for the 4 years that they spoke minimally suggests that she loved her idea of him and not him, himself. they do address this in the show, towards the end, and, while now i'm willing to believe she actually loves him now, it obviously is a less strong conviction than 4 years worth of truly loving him. purely as a comment to your post: i would normally consider that length of pining to be of the same value as more dating experience, but she wasn't really pining so it doesn't really count.
them having confessed to eachother when they did (before they had dated others) has kinda dug them down a hole. not really dug them down a hole but revealed the hole they're already in. the good side of this is that they won't accidentally hurt eachother. the bad side of this is they can't figure out what is real and what isn't as easily anymore; things are now tangled pretty fucking thoroughly. so tangled that i don't think dating other people would accomplish or resolve anything. not to mention: it would be beyond bitter for them and selfish/unfair to the person they're dating

maybe theyre planning on seeing how they age and where theyre at in a few years. that wouldnt really make sense with kirino's character but it's a far more realistic solution than your idea while also is realistic in that it acknowledges their youth. i doubt it acknowledges the first concern i said directly, but at least it does indirectly

Serenity09 wrote:

hmm pat... that wasn't super well thought out


i get the whole experience thing. obviously for you, and also for me, i like to make informed decisions. even a good decision isn't generally good enough for me without "data", or experience, to back it up. but this doesn't apply to everyone (and, for me anyways, it doesn't apply to everything) and it's a good thing it doesn't. some people are happy with what they have without questioning what they could have had. most of the people that I've met that are like that have, whether or not theyre aware of it at the time, an overarching philosophy where this mentality is kind of a side effect. it's not black and white or all encompassing ever though, some people question some things of some things while others do the same for other things.
with who kirino is now, there is absolutely more evidence that her character falls under the umbrella of "happy with what i've got if it's kyosuke." the show literally makes this point so many times that it gets repetitive. maybe you're right and her character would change hugely and fundamentally after a few years but nothing in the show supports that idea, most of the events actually oppose it. your opinion is going off of your personal experience and views, not the show.

This isnt "happy with what she has" its more that she just doesnt know anything else
Everyone needs experience and "data" to make informed decisions, your right about that not applying to everything, but your missing my point because i agree with you that she wouldnt change
I never said she would, i just said kyosuke should give her that chance and that it was selfish for him not to, thats the important part, that she has the chance to make an informed decision, not that she would change
Also its far more powerful for her to still decide on kyosuke after having the chance to make an informed decision since the audience knows she isnt just settling for kyosuke because she doesnt know anything else (which is how it would feel to me if it goes in that direction)

Serenity09 wrote:

saying it like this is too condescending. you started out with opinions, but acting like you know how something will turn out / what the best course of action is for other people is obnoxious.

also what you're suggesting probably wouldn't even work for them. it's very mechanical and they're very emotional. their characters wouldn't be able to forget about everything between them, and so them having other relationships would really just be trying other relationships in order to confirm the validity of theirs, which isn't a good idea no matter how you construe it. i'm not sure what about that plan you thought would fit their characters or even be good for them...

I didnt say they should forget, they would never forget, i think you thought i was saying they should forget about it and not be together, which isnt what i was saying at all
I never said how it would turn out, you are assuming i was saying it wouldnt work between them just cause i said he should reject her
And i wasnt saying that was the best course of action, its just the ending i would want to see, i did say it was selfish/taking advantage but that doesnt automatically mean im telling him what to do, i just dont want him to and if he does thats what i would think of it

All i was saying was kyosuke should let kirino get some more experience and then decide, her decision would most likely still be him eventually(i guess i shouldve said that part but i figured youd think along the same line i was), but it would be a much stronger decision

Just that they wouldnt show the part where they actually get together at the end, with my ending it would end slightly after him rejecting her and the audience would either say "they didnt get together because he rejected her" or they would say what i was saying about them eventually getting together since, like you said, the show made the point that she was happy with kyosuke so many times
The part where she is rejected would be key, it would have to be done in a way that conveys that point 1 last time, and shows how hard it was for kyosuke to do

It would be very emotional and i dont think its out of character for kyosuke to do

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Everyone needs experience and "data" to make informed decisions

i agree with the reasoning but i disagree with your conclusion.

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This isnt "happy with what she has" its more that she just doesnt know anything else

i don't think these are mutually exclusive and you do; this is what i'm disagreeing with in the first section -- i wasn't misunderstanding what you thought would happen next at any point; i just disagree with you on your assumption that everyone needs this "play the field" phase to be "happy with what they have." specifically you think that to be "happy with what you have" in a meaningful sense that mandates a certain level of knowledge of "what you don't have."
you are right that you need experience to make an informed decision, but that doesn't mean you can't be perfectly in bliss with an uninformed decision. in fact whether or not an informed decision is any more meaningful than an uninformed decision is inherently as subjective as the idea of "meaningfulness." happiness is not inherently less meaningful just because it lacks evidence. it just lacks evidence, any argument otherwise is subjective and, usually more so, semantic.
what im getting at here, and was trying to in my original post, is that if you're the kind of person that can be happy with one thing in a blind sort of way, than searching for more than that will just make you miserable. i'm not at all like this, so this sort of zen isn't my usual, but kirino is when it comes to who she loves. i agree that she needs more experience, read through my spoilers after you finish the show, but i don't agree at all with your belief that this is the only possible way to reach a meaningful relationship between the two.
you took my argument against you as me just not liking the outcome you were saying, but that's not at all what i was trying to convey. me calling your post "not well thought out" probably didnt help much either.

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I never said she would, i just said kyosuke should give her that chance and that it was selfish for him not to, thats the important part, that she has the chance to make an informed decision, not that she would change

see above about misunderstandings / what i was actually trying to say

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Also its far more powerful for her to still decide on kyosuke after having the chance to make an informed decision since the audience knows she isnt just settling for kyosuke because she doesnt know anything else (which is how it would feel to me if it goes in that direction)

if the main characters were you and your non-existent sibling, or anyone else with a similar philosophy, then it would be a much more powerful ending. the course of action for characters with a different view on life, with different needs and different beliefs, should match them and not us.

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I didnt say they should forget, they would never forget, i think you thought i was saying they should forget about it and not be together, which isnt what i was saying at all

i also didn't say you said they should/could forget. i said that for your resolution to work for their characters they would need to forget. like you said, they couldn't ever forget and so that course of action would never work for them

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I never said how it would turn out, you are assuming i was saying it wouldnt work between them just cause i said he should reject her

no i knew exactly what you meant, but no matter what the end result was this would still mean dating other people (with your idea of how things should resolve). i can potentially see them going through it and reconciling and proceeding afterwards but i cant see their characters being happier / more satisfied for it.

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And i wasnt saying that was the best course of action, its just the ending i would want to see, i did say it was selfish/taking advantage but that doesnt automatically mean im telling him what to do, i just dont want him to and if he does thats what i would think of it

i didnt realize this is how you meant it, that's not obnoxious (sorry). this still fits into what i'm saying. why will you be more satisfied with an ending that's true to how you feel rather than true to the characters

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All i was saying was kyosuke should let kirino get some more experience and then decide, her decision would most likely still be him eventually(i guess i shouldve said that part but i figured youd think along the same line i was), but it would be a much stronger decision

so i do think more experience fits with their characters in a positive way but i still disagree that it needs to be specifically with love. im also not about to claim that her otaku games count, that would be ridiculous... except for that 3d one. it's hard to talk about the rest without you having finished the show

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Just that they wouldnt show the part where they actually get together at the end, with my ending it would end slightly after him rejecting her and the audience would either say "they didnt get together because he rejected her" or they would say what i was saying about them eventually getting together since, like you said, the show made the point that she was happy with kyosuke so many times
The part where she is rejected would be key, it would have to be done in a way that conveys that point 1 last time, and shows how hard it was for kyosuke to do

It would be very emotional and i dont think its out of character for kyosuke to do

this would be a really solid, albeit really open, ending. i dont think its at all out of character for kyosuke to do, and it leaves the what happens next, regardless of our opinions on it, up to the characters. without revealing much at all: what actually happens is, arguably, similar.

i think that my final opinion on the ending is that they've decided to wait until they have more experience, like pat said, but specifically life experience, like i kindly corrected, and also until they're better situated. the wedding ceremony is them effectively pledging themselves, but the "now it's over" is them saying that they're going to take a step back, but not far back, to get some more experience as individuals (and i guess as siblings) before getting experience as a couple. it seems a little bit backwards though, i personally don't think they should have done the marriage ceremony at all if they were going to fully revert to being siblings. it's a very them thing to rush into, so i can't really argue with it. i guess the kiss at the end also suggests that they haven't fully reverted to being siblings. that would make the whole married-then-not thing a lot easier to swallow. by fully reverted i mean the idea of separating the two timelines entirely. not fully reverted would mean they acknowledge what they are to each other but that's still something that's been tabled till later

Serenity09 wrote:

this would be a really solid, albeit really open, ending. i dont think its at all out of character for kyosuke to do, and it leaves the what happens next, regardless of our opinions on it, up to the characters. without revealing much at all: what actually happens is, arguably, similar.

Everything i was saying makes it possible for that ending to happen, and you said that ending is solid, so how can you disagree with me or say stuff like "why will you be more satisfied with an ending that's true to how you feel rather than true to the characters" when you just said its not out of character for kyosuke to do
It just doesnt make sense, i dont understand how you think its solid but yet strongly disagree with everything that makes it possible, maybe it will make more sense when i watch the end, but i really dont think so

Ill watch the rest of it before responding to anything else there, but since you said the ending i proposed is solid i see no reason to continue defending the parts that make it possible until you explain how something is solid but also completely wrong

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Everything i was saying makes it possible for that ending to happen, and you said that ending is solid, so how can you disagree with me or say stuff like "why will you be more satisfied with an ending that's true to how you feel rather than true to the characters" when you just said its not out of character for kyosuke to do
It just doesnt make sense, i dont understand how you think its solid but yet strongly disagree with everything that makes it possible, maybe it will make more sense when i watch the end, but i really dont think so

Ill watch the rest of it before responding to anything else there, but since you said the ending i proposed is solid i see no reason to continue defending the parts that make it possible until you explain how something is solid but also completely wrong

it wouldnt be out of character for kyosuke to shoot kirino down because he's worried about her. that would potentially make for a really solid ending, nothing more. usually when somebody takes a point of view 50 times over, you can start to assume thats actually their point of view. by that same logic, if something doesnt immediately make sense or add up you can generally reason out what the overall sentiment is. ill keep spelling it out though if thats what you want, but this would be a lot more fun if you argued logic and philosophy rather then nitpicked over my phrasing and thoroughness. you damn well could have figured this one out without me

saying that everything youve said so far could still have this ending is stupid because it ignores all the specifics of the preceedings and how they effect the actual ending, not to mention the proceedings. he could literally kill a person and still have this ending. why are you making me spell this out. hell, at this point our argument isnt even about the exact specifics of the ending, it's about the things surrounding the ending.

youre taking my quote completely out on context. i explain very thoroughly why thats a valid question and why i disagree with you. also, i have the vague suspicion that it annoys you a lot when youre arguing and agree with something, no matter how small and isolated, and then the other person takes that as you agreeing with everything and contradicting yourself entirely.

Serenity09 wrote:

it wouldnt be out of character for kyosuke to shoot kirino down because he's worried about her. that would potentially make for a really solid ending, nothing more.

Yes, he would be worried about her being too young and inexperienced like i was saying
What else would he be worried about?
Theres nothing else that would cause him to reject her other than that
So in order for a rejection ending to be solid, it would have to be like i was saying
Hence why i dont understand

The only explanation is that you have a different reason for why he would reject her but since you still havent said anything about it i dont think you do and just didnt think it through
And "because hes worried about her" is too vague to count as a reason

Serenity09 wrote:

usually when somebody takes a point of view 50 times over, you can start to assume thats actually their point of view. by that same logic, if something doesnt immediately make sense or add up you can generally reason out what the overall sentiment is. ill keep spelling it out though if thats what you want, but this would be a lot more fun if you argued logic and philosophy rather then nitpicked over my phrasing and thoroughness. you damn well could have figured this one out without me

This theoretical ending did come about because of my point of view, but it still fits the characters, at least kyosuke, which is all that really matters since he would be the one doing the rejecting
This wouldnt work if it was kirino rejecting him, i would agree with what youre saying in that case

Serenity09 wrote:

saying that everything youve said so far could still have this ending is stupid because it ignores all the specifics of the preceedings and how they effect the actual ending, not to mention the proceedings. he could literally kill a person and still have this ending. why are you making me spell this out. hell, at this point our argument isnt even about the exact specifics of the ending, it's about the things surrounding the ending.

I dont even know how to respond to this
If he killed someone this ending probably wouldnt be possible, depending on his reasons for killing, and how kirino would react to it, and how he would react to doing it, theres too many variables to say if this ending is possible or not with the addition of him killing someone
But that has nothing to do with anything, everything i said contributes to my ending and doesnt ignore anything, as ive explained many times

Serenity09 wrote:

youre taking my quote completely out on context. i explain very thoroughly why thats a valid question and why i disagree with you. also, i have the vague suspicion that it annoys you a lot when youre arguing and agree with something, no matter how small and isolated, and then the other person takes that as you agreeing with everything and contradicting yourself entirely.

I havent contradicted myself and i havent gotten annoyed

Lets recap, I said i didnt hope they get together at the start, which meant i hope it doesnt end with them explicitly getting together, and then proceeded to tell you the ending i hoped for which involved the audience deciding if they got together or not, along with a theory of how that ending could come about, and that if presented with an ending like that i would decide that they did get together, and thats all ive been saying this whole time, i also gave my personal thoughts on why i didnt like them just straight up getting together, theres no contradiction there

I didnt take your quote out of context either, see the stuff i posted at the beginning of this post

i liked episode 12's ending the most where kirino dropped the trip although i dont remember her giving a valid reason for doing so.  when i saw episode 12.5 and kirino leaving i thought the show was going to be pretty boring, which it was, until she eventually came back which brought more story but i think there couldve been a way to duplicate that story without kirino leaving and keeping episode 12 where she stays.

wtf the ending was so stupid, wat was the point of being married until they graduate?  if they actually loved each other like that then they wouldnt care what anyone thought and just been married forever. why would they use each other as experience when they can just start with a non-sibling as an experience without all the incest? the guy turned down so many ppl just to be with his sister for a bit which is stupid because he actually really liked most of those girls and now he probably ruined any chance of getting back with them after his temporary marriage with his sister. i hated manami in the last episode when she was like "im going to tell your parents on you". and how can anyone just live their love lives to a certain point and then all of a sudden drop it like it never happened?

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Yes, he would be worried about her being too young and inexperienced like i was saying
What else would he be worried about?

what else wouldn't he be worried about. his friends all hating him. being disowned. kirino losing potential future possibilities. him losing potential future possibilities. everything changing in a way that cant ever change back. a crazy anti-incest cult attacking them with weaponized giraffes. them accidentally having a kid together. never being accepted by society at large for their entire life. having to explain themselves to every new person who learns their secret. having a grand total of, like, 3 friends because very few would accept them.

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Theres nothing else (besides the inexperienced issue) that would cause him to reject her other than that

really. none of those seem like things that would be worth a few minutes of thought

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So in order for a rejection ending to be solid, it would have to be like i was saying
Hence why i dont understand

what how did you even just. what how. what? no

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The only explanation is that you have a different reason for why he would reject her but since you still havent said anything about it i dont think you do and just didnt think it through

you're right, that's probably it.

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And "because hes worried about her" is too vague to count as a reason

who the fuck made a rule about how specific reasons have to be "to count." source.

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This theoretical ending did come about because of my point of view, but it still fits the characters, at least kyosuke, which is all that really matters since he would be the one doing the rejecting

yeah you came up with it as a end to the show following your POV. that doesn't mean that it's not a possible end for any number of scenarios. with how vague it is, it is a possible end for many more scenarios.

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This wouldnt work if it was kirino rejecting him, i would agree with what youre saying in that case

SHE WOULDNT EVER. NOT KYOSUKE

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I dont even know how to respond to this

so i see

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If he killed someone this ending probably wouldnt be possible, depending on his reasons for killing, and how kirino would react to it, and how he would react to doing it, theres too many variables to say if this ending is possible or not with the addition of him killing someone

the idea is that any number of scenarios could end with him rejecting kirino because he's worried about her. in this one she could still confess to him but then he'd be all like "no bitch, im a wanted man" and she'd be like "that's so edgy and cool, make me yours" and then he'd be like "word -- but not really i love you too much. okay pce *speeds off on motorcycle into sunset before it explodes because*"

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But that has nothing to do with anything, everything i said contributes to my ending and doesnt ignore anything, as ive explained many times

i hate you. i never said it contradicts your ending, i just said that its possible that many things (different things) could lead to it.
i disagree with the things you've said but i don't think the specific ending is bad at all. not mutually exclusive. i do disagree that things youve said could lead up to that ending for their characters (you fucking idiot how did you not figure out there was a 13th ep after all of this)

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I havent contradicted myself and i havent gotten annoyed

i know you haven't, im saying that if i was arguing like you are you'd be pissed.

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Lets recap, I said i didnt hope they get together at the start, which meant i hope it doesnt end with them explicitly getting together, and then proceeded to tell you the ending i hoped for which involved the audience deciding if they got together or not, along with a theory of how that ending could come about, and that if presented with an ending like that i would decide that they did get together, and thats all ive been saying this whole time, i also gave my personal thoughts on why i didnt like them just straight up getting together, theres no contradiction there

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I didnt take your quote out of context either, see the stuff i posted at the beginning of this post

you took something i said and then left out all the reasons i said it. then after isolating that particular quote, and ignoring everything im saying about how the ending and the preceedings / proceedings are separate, you said it was contradictory to what im saying. but yeah youre right, thats totally not out of context

i liked the first ending too. i assumed that after she broke his fucking nose he had said something in his coma like please dont leave or something. the show was so bad until kirino came back into it.

the "live their love lives to a certain point and then all of a sudden drop it like it never happened" was what had me stuck too. its definitely stupid like that but i think what really happened is what i said in my last spoiler

seren wrote:

i think that my final opinion on the ending is that they've decided to wait until they have more experience, like pat said, but specifically life experience, like i kindly corrected, and also until they're better situated. the wedding ceremony is them effectively pledging themselves, but the "now it's over" is them saying that they're going to take a step back, but not far back, to get some more experience as individuals (and i guess as siblings) before getting experience as a couple. it seems a little bit backwards though, i personally don't think they should have done the marriage ceremony at all if they were going to fully revert to being siblings. it's a very them thing to rush into, so i can't really argue with it. i guess the kiss at the end also suggests that they haven't fully reverted to being siblings. that would make the whole married-then-not thing a lot easier to swallow. by fully reverted i mean the idea of separating the two timelines entirely. not fully reverted would mean they acknowledge what they are to each other but that's still something that's been tabled till later

Serenity09 wrote:

what else wouldn't he be worried about. his friends all hating him. being disowned. kirino losing potential future possibilities. him losing potential future possibilities. everything changing in a way that cant ever change back. a crazy anti-incest cult attacking them with weaponized giraffes. them accidentally having a kid together. never being accepted by society at large for their entire life. having to explain themselves to every new person who learns their secret. having a grand total of, like, 3 friends because very few would accept them.

Kirino losing potential future possibilities is exactly the kind of thing im talking about....
And I considered the rest of those, but since he rejected ayase and said there was someone else he loved i figured he also considered that and that scene implies he resolved himself to a future with her and that he didnt care about the incest taboo, the only thing that would stop him is what i was saying, and the only thing that can make this ending possible after that scene

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yeah you came up with it as a end to the show following your POV. that doesn't mean that it's not a possible end for any number of scenarios. with how vague it is, it is a possible end for many more scenarios.

You can say that about any ending at all, as long as what you make up still fits the ending, but that requires either going back and retconning the show with made up stuff that fits, or just making up random stuff that fits right before the ending happens (like your killing a guy example, though that doesnt really fit but lets just go with it)
The stuff i made up goes forward from ep 12, so i sortved did both of those by mistake, but i didnt know 13 existed at the time so you should take it as that ending being my theory for what i hope will happen in episode 13 based on what happened at the end of 12 (i dont think it will happen though, and its not the only ending that would make me happy, its just 1 that wont make me unhappy since ep 12 seems to be leading into something that i would be disappointed in)

Serenity09 wrote:

SHE WOULDNT EVER. NOT KYOSUKE

Its not that she wouldnt reject him, its that she wouldnt reject him for these reasons
Also an ending with kyosuke confessing to her is possible, but only if there is a pretty significant timeskip of a couple years
And if there was a timeskip like that nothing of what im saying would have any relevance since she wouldnt be inexperienced and etc.

Serenity09 wrote:

the idea is that any number of scenarios could end with him rejecting kirino because he's worried about her.

Serenity09 wrote:

i hate you. i never said it contradicts your ending, i just said that its possible that many things (different things) could lead to it.
i disagree with the things you've said but i don't think the specific ending is bad at all. not mutually exclusive. i do disagree that things youve said could lead up to that ending for their characters

While i agree the ending could apply to multiple scenarios leading up to it, all of that would have to happen before kyosuke rejects ayase, since after that point in order for that ending to work this is the only thing that would allow it from that point forward

Serenity09 wrote:

in this one she could still confess to him but then he'd be all like "no bitch, im a wanted man" and she'd be like "that's so edgy and cool, make me yours" and then he'd be like "word -- but not really i love you too much. okay pce *speeds off on motorcycle into sunset before it explodes because*"

What you proposed would be a completely different ending to what i said
Also in that ending he would be riding a giraffe not a motorcycle, and it would explode because ayase was pissed after being rejected by him so she fed the giraffe c4 before giving it to him

Serenity09 wrote:

(you fucking idiot how did you not figure out there was a 13th ep after all of this)

Its too late for that now
But its because you never said anything that i didnt know already, i had my suspicions that something was amiss, i thought it was because i didnt see the ovas though, how am i supposed to know that a 13th episode ninjad its way in

Serenity09 wrote:

i know you haven't, im saying that if i was arguing like you are you'd be pissed.

I wouldnt be pissed, i wouldve figured out you hadnt seen episode 13, told you, and then proceeded to argue about episode 12

Serenity09 wrote:

you took something i said and then left out all the reasons i said it. then after isolating that particular quote, and ignoring everything im saying about how the ending and the preceedings / proceedings are separate, you said it was contradictory to what im saying.

It is contradictory, you said it was a solid ending, but disagreed with what made it up, see the first part of this post, or any of the other parts of my posts that say the same thing, for how its contradictory
Thats why i isolated it and ignored the rest, and why i didnt take it out of context

Serenity09 wrote:

but yeah youre right, thats totally not out of context

Im glad you see it that way  

The things I didnt like were the AWFUL OVAs, and those random 3 episodes when Kirinos away in America.

Also, I agree with seren: the harem that started coming up (like wtf half of it didnt even make sense -- when did the redhair girl come into this???) was kinda bad; especially how ALL the girls just started falling in love with him and confessing. Up to that one point were Kyousuke moves out to live on his own I really liked the show, because it was just one guy and like 5 girls but didnt feel like some crappy harem or romance at all.

The episodes when Kirino was away were tolerable, but felt really meh without her. Besides, the only thing that actually happened was the gothgirl and kyousuke joining some random ass club together, where they met the character I probably disliked the most (homo gamer girl).

The last 3 episodes just felt really off, like how Kyousuke did this whole confession thingy, and kirino just answers "yes". (btw wtf is this "Im going back to America" thing AGAIN, it's almost like they couldnt come up with anything else). That just felt really out of character and anticlimatic imo... And then all characters just felt off from then on, proably because its an OVA, but way too off. Like how the girls from the anime club are just like "ok w/e you're dating". I mean even if they knew about it the whole time, I don't think they would react like that. Kyousuke kinda acted like he always did though, but Kirino was just like WAY off.

I didn't even watch the last episode where they get married and w/e because it just sounds goddamn terrible... I knew the show was going that way (incest kinda) I mean it was kinda obvious, and I was hoping it would happen (eventually), but it just felt rushed and out of place.

I wouldve rather stopped watching at the kinda incomplete ending at episode 13 than have watched these OVAs. It honestly just felt like a bunch of fanservice, which i feel is kinda undeserved for an anime like this where the pacing and whole flirting thing were enough (for me).

Damnit seren, im writing this right after having seen ep 13 and everything i was saying is still valid even after 13 since 13 is basically a clip show
Plus episode 13 directly supports my point of him borderline taking advantage of her if he accepts her confession (unless theres a time skip at some point) since they showed how much she loved her brother from the start and only drawing experience from eroge about sisters loving their brothers which definitely isnt healthy

Just saw the first ova, and son of a bitch, i knew he was setting this up, with how he rejected ayase and later kuroneko, but i didnt think he would just come out and confess to her like this, telling her everything
He is definitely taking advantage of her now though, its 1 thing to set it up and wait for her to come to him like how i was thinking it would be, but this is just ridiculous
The scene with him rejecting kuroneko was very well done though, and the bit with the homo eroge was funny, season 1 levels of funny

Just finished watching it, and its probably the most disappointing ending possible, they basically did what i was saying, but in a roundabout backwards way that makes little sense and just tricks the audience (my ending and everything i was saying to lead up to it makes more sense and i cant believe you were fighting me on it when the actual ending makes less sense, and at least my ending didnt trick the audience)

The harem was thrown in there to show that Kyosuke intends to be with Kirino at some point in the future, it was so he could turn all those girls down even though he knew that their relationship was only until they graduate, since if he wasnt going to try again with Kirino he couldve easily explained how their relationship was temporary to Manami (especially manami) or Kanako (who had no reason to confess to him, the fact that she did supports this idea) rather than do it the way he did it

Theres no explanation as to why Kirino came up with the "lets be lovers until we graduate" thing or why kyosuke would agree to that, you cant say its because they want to get more life experience because theres no evidence to support that, since it was kirino's idea i doubt it was to get more life experience she isnt the type to consider that like you were saying seren, and kyosuke wouldnt have agreed to it because of that since he didnt consider that before confessing to her and nothing happened to make him consider that between that point and when he confessed so its not something he would be considering either

The whole scene with manami was entirely pointless since their relationship was ending right after that anyway and manami never showed any romantic feelings for kyosuke prior to this, its only purpose was to trick the audience
Thats how most of the last scenes felt after seeing that ending "lets trick the audience into believing they are 100% together right before we cop out and basically reset everything" and thats my biggest problem with the ending
The show went past a point of no return by making you believe they would be 100% together but returned from that point anyway by explaining it was just temporary, i dont agree with how kyosuke confessed and all that but i wouldve been happier with an ending where they were 100% together after everything that happened
In fact i was willing forgive most of the kyosuke thing and say "kyosuke didnt see it as taking advantage of her so its not like he did it maliciously, its not good for kirino but i guess serens right and the only thing that really matters is that shes happy, which she seems to be, so i cant complain"
But i cant forgive tricking the audience or the issues (arguably plot holes) that trick causes with everything that happens after they agree that the relationship will be temporary

Oh yeah and they just ignored the whole consequences to an incestuous relationship thing by having everyone just accept it (except manami, but like i said before that was pointless) and completely removing their parents from the show
Or maybe they didnt ignore it and the lesson here is that incestuous relationships have no consequences if you just do it for a little while and then pretend like it never happened and go back to the way things were, even after bragging about it to everyone in school, im sure kirinos reputation in high school will be fine going forward from this point, yep, no consequences at all
I couldve forgiven the cop out if there was some consequence to what happened, like a scene with their parents finding out, but no

So overall the ending sucked, i wish the show just stayed a comedy like season 1

I didnt mention this before, well i kindve did in chat, but the ending i really wanted was 1 with Kyosuke and Ayase getting together
An ending like that wouldnt work with everything else, but if i was really making an ideal ending it would be that

And yes i know Ayase and Kirino are the same age so i should be saying he sould reject Ayase so she can get more experience and taking advantage and all that, but Ayase is more mature than Kirino, and the situation is different there

pat fucking 1487 wrote:

Damnit seren, im writing this right after having seen ep 13 and everything i was saying is still valid even after 13 since 13 is basically a clip show
Plus episode 13 directly supports my point of him borderline taking advantage of her if he accepts her confession

OH REALLY PAT
OH REALLY

Quote :

I would have figured out you hadn't seen episode 13 right away because sir hogsly would have told me ahahahahaha mortals

i hate you

Quote :

(unless theres a time skip at some point) since they showed how much she loved her brother from the start and only drawing experience from eroge about sisters loving their brothers which definitely isnt healthy

healthy is a weird term. but id agree that would be pretty bad. i dont think she was drawing experience from eroge ever though, just that she was enjoying the experience of. if she was drawing experience on how love should be from eroge i think the story would have been very different

Quote :

Just saw the first ova, and son of a bitch, i knew he was setting this up, with how he rejected ayase and later kuroneko, but i didnt think he would just come out and confess to her like this, telling her everything

lmao yeah
i was imagining your reaction to this episode and it made me think of this robot chicken skit

i realize that the metaphor doesnt line up perfectly. or maybe it does.

Quote :

The harem was thrown in there to show that Kyosuke intends to be with Kirino at some point in the future, it was so he could turn all those girls down even though he knew that their relationship was only until they graduate, since if he wasnt going to try again with Kirino he couldve easily explained how their relationship was temporary to Manami (especially manami) or Kanako (who had no reason to confess to him, the fact that she did supports this idea) rather than do it the way he did it

this makes sense but it sucks. it wasn't "thrown in there," that would be way more graceful then what actually happened. it went in unwanted and without lube. there's a warrant out for its arrest
i didnt want to think this was the actual reason bc it adds to what bothered me, and you, about the various resolutions. that it's such a cheat. there are so many better ways to show this that aren't as contrived

Quote :

Theres no explanation as to why Kirino came up with the "lets be lovers until we graduate" thing or why kyosuke would agree to that, you cant say its because they want to get more life experience because theres no evidence to support that, since it was kirino's idea i doubt it was to get more life experience she isnt the type to consider that like you were saying seren, and kyosuke wouldnt have agreed to it because of that since he didnt consider that before confessing to her and nothing happened to make him consider that between that point and when he confessed so its not something he would be considering either

yeah it's definitely out of character. for both of them, and especially i didnt get at all why kyosuke agreed so immediately. in the last few eps characters weren't really themselves but kinda devices of the plot. i wasnt overly unhappy with this instance since kirino can occasionally be realistic / mature and this seemed like it could fit. i can definitely see her coming up with ways to make being together work... im just not sure i can see this being one of them.
there was a bit of explanation though. kirino came up with the idea because she was thinking about a future together and was struggling with the impossible bits. this was one of her solutions. she never explains why the solution was at all beneficial or happy. she never shares the reasoning. my earlier ending-spoiler posts are me trying to figure out what her reasoning could have possibly been

serenity wrote:

i think that my final opinion on the ending is that they've decided to wait until they have more experience, like pat said, but specifically life experience, like i kindly corrected, and also until they're better situated. the wedding ceremony is them effectively pledging themselves, but the "now it's over" is them saying that they're going to take a step back, but not far back, to get some more experience as individuals (and i guess as siblings) before getting experience as a couple. it seems a little bit backwards though, i personally don't think they should have done the marriage ceremony at all if they were going to fully revert to being siblings. it's a very them thing to rush into, so i can't really argue with it. i guess the kiss at the end also suggests that they haven't fully reverted to being siblings. that would make the whole married-then-not thing a lot easier to swallow. by fully reverted i mean the idea of separating the two timelines entirely. not fully reverted would mean they acknowledge what they are to each other but that's still something that's been tabled till later

i still think this is what the writers were shooting for but i think it was very poorly executed

Quote :

The whole scene with manami was entirely pointless

it was really weird. i dont think it was pointless but the way it was shot / presented made it feel really pointless. they made their argument into this weird final boss fight. it was so focused on being dramatic that it forgot to really be anything else
i think if it had been shot differently it would have made the entire ending a lot more satisfying. after reflecting a bit, the "duel" did add something. kyosuke kinda sorta explains his reason for agreeing to kirino's deal. but kinda sorta in a "the implication implied" way. he acknowledged societal and social circumstances while still adamantly defending his choice. which counts for something but the way it happened made it feel empty and insincere (like he was just picking the "right" chat option in an eroge)

Quote :

Oh yeah and they just ignored the whole consequences to an incestuous relationship thing by having everyone just accept it (except manami, but like i said before that was pointless) and completely removing their parents from the show

i dont think they completely ignored it. most of the friends were believable, but they were also the "easy" friends. there actually werent that many in the loop, only 5 or so people knew by the end. and half the point of their plan was to ease friction for this component so i dont think the show cheated here. well i still think, depending on what their actual reasoning was, that the original plan was a cheat so maybe itd continue to be a cheat here
either way though, "not letting their parents in on it" was basically a synonym for the plan. i would have liked to see a time jump and then see how it went over with the parents. im guessing not well.

the show definitely cheated by not showing ayase's reaction. she would inevitably find out if they never told her, but i also feel like they would tell her given how much she dislikes half truths etc. either way something would have happened within the same time frame and it weakened the show by ignoring it

overall i think that the resolution for the story kinda fits but doesnt really. like when youre doing a puzzle and a piece sorta-kinda-but-not-really fits so, since you've been looking for a better alternative with no luck for hours, you delude yourself into pretending its the right piece but then a week later you sigh deeply and take it out because you always knew deep down that it made no fucking sense. i liked it okay but it definitely was a let down

Serenity09 wrote:

healthy is a weird term. but id agree that would be pretty bad. i dont think she was drawing experience from eroge ever though, just that she was enjoying the experience of. if she was drawing experience on how love should be from eroge i think the story would have been very different

I think it influenced her, her initial interest in her brother drew her to sister eroge which in turn kept her feelings for her brother going
Without it i think she may have given up the idea they could have a romantic relationship but the relationships in those games worked so it made her think her relationship could work based on those games, so id say that counts as drawing experience

Serenity09 wrote:

lmao yeah
i was imagining your reaction to this episode and it made me think of this robot chicken skit

i realize that the metaphor doesnt line up perfectly. or maybe it does.

That was pretty close, there was no bargaining stage but the rest is accurate, i even said my acceptance stage in the post
About half way through, when he wanted to go on a christmas date and even got a hotel room, i was like, "no, dont do what i think youre about to do", then when he was about to confess i was like "he wont do it, something will stop him, itll be fine", then she ran away and i was like "good", then kuroneko and the rest rolled up and i was like "no, dont help him what are you doing", then he confessed and i was like "isafdhisgfjhsodjgrsfioweugfssdofihsadfoihdgf son of a bitch", then later before they revealed it was just temporary, right before the manami scene i accepted it with the "he didnt do it maliciously and shes happy so w/e" thing

Serenity09 wrote:

this makes sense but it sucks. it wasn't "thrown in there," that would be way more graceful then what actually happened. it went in unwanted and without lube. there's a warrant out for its arrest
i didnt want to think this was the actual reason bc it adds to what bothered me, and you, about the various resolutions. that it's such a cheat. there are so many better ways to show this that aren't as contrived

Lmao
Yeah, when Kanako confessed, thats when i was decided that must be what its for, they didnt even need Kanako to confess, before that i was thinking thats what it was for and wouldve understood it and been fine with it, but then Kanako confessed too and ruined it

Serenity09 wrote:

yeah it's definitely out of character. for both of them, and especially i didnt get at all why kyosuke agreed so immediately. in the last few eps characters weren't really themselves but kinda devices of the plot. i wasnt overly unhappy with this instance since kirino can occasionally be realistic / mature and this seemed like it could fit. i can definitely see her coming up with ways to make being together work... im just not sure i can see this being one of them.
there was a bit of explanation though. kirino came up with the idea because she was thinking about a future together and was struggling with the impossible bits. this was one of her solutions. she never explains why the solution was at all beneficial or happy. she never shares the reasoning. my earlier ending-spoiler posts are me trying to figure out what her reasoning could have possibly been

serenity wrote:

i think that my final opinion on the ending is that they've decided to wait until they have more experience, like pat said, but specifically life experience, like i kindly corrected, and also until they're better situated. the wedding ceremony is them effectively pledging themselves, but the "now it's over" is them saying that they're going to take a step back, but not far back, to get some more experience as individuals (and i guess as siblings) before getting experience as a couple. it seems a little bit backwards though, i personally don't think they should have done the marriage ceremony at all if they were going to fully revert to being siblings. it's a very them thing to rush into, so i can't really argue with it. i guess the kiss at the end also suggests that they haven't fully reverted to being siblings. that would make the whole married-then-not thing a lot easier to swallow. by fully reverted i mean the idea of separating the two timelines entirely. not fully reverted would mean they acknowledge what they are to each other but that's still something that's been tabled till later

i still think this is what the writers were shooting for but i think it was very poorly executed

Her reasoning is what i meant, she thought about it but that doesnt explain why this is what she came up with, i dont think life experience is it either which i explained before so your final spoiler explanation doesnt work for me
If that is what they were going for they failed, the only reason you came to life experience as an explanation is because i mentioned it and it fits what happened pretty well so your trying to fill in the holes, but theres nothing in the show itself to suggest it

Serenity09 wrote:

it was really weird. i dont think it was pointless but the way it was shot / presented made it feel really pointless. they made their argument into this weird final boss fight. it was so focused on being dramatic that it forgot to really be anything else
i think if it had been shot differently it would have made the entire ending a lot more satisfying. after reflecting a bit, the "duel" did add something. kyosuke kinda sorta explains his reason for agreeing to kirino's deal. but kinda sorta in a "the implication implied" way. he acknowledged societal and social circumstances while still adamantly defending his choice. which counts for something but the way it happened made it feel empty and insincere (like he was just picking the "right" chat option in an eroge)

If it explained kyosukes reason for agreeing to that deal it wouldnt be pointless, but it didnt
He never once seemed concerned about the social aspects, sure he acknowledged it but if he cared he wouldnt have yelled in the street with a bunch of people watching him as he confessed to his sister, or he wouldnt have confessed in the first place, so i dont think it explains it

The only thing that could work (but doesnt because it goes back to him just not confessing to her in the first place) is that he thinks the social thing wont be an issue at all in the future, since they look different enough people wouldnt know they are brother and sister, so in a couple years, after school, very few people would know/be able to tell that they are brother and sister

Serenity09 wrote:

i dont think they completely ignored it. most of the friends were believable, but they were also the "easy" friends. there actually werent that many in the loop, only 5 or so people knew by the end. and half the point of their plan was to ease friction for this component so i dont think the show cheated here. well i still think, depending on what their actual reasoning was, that the original plan was a cheat so maybe itd continue to be a cheat here
either way though, "not letting their parents in on it" was basically a synonym for the plan. i would have liked to see a time jump and then see how it went over with the parents. im guessing not well.

the show definitely cheated by not showing ayase's reaction. she would inevitably find out if they never told her, but i also feel like they would tell her given how much she dislikes half truths etc. either way something would have happened within the same time frame and it weakened the show by ignoring it

Manami said "what would you think of a girl that brags about going out with her brother" during her speech and made me think kirino told people at school, its possible she didnt and i just interpreted it wrong, idk why i would interrupt it that way since she almost certainly wouldnt tell people at school, just the way manami said it made me think that and i didnt really give it much thought past that since i was still annoyed while writing it, so it probably is just 5-10 people
But it still feels like they are ignoring it with how their parents and ayase werent in the last episodes

And of course they wouldnt tell their parents, but im sure they would find out after awhile, i guess you could say not enough time passed for them to figure it out, but i think they would know by now

Serenity09 wrote:

overall i think that the resolution for the story kinda fits but doesnt really. like when youre doing a puzzle and a piece sorta-kinda-but-not-really fits so, since you've been looking for a better alternative with no luck for hours, you delude yourself into pretending its the right piece but then a week later you sigh deeply and take it out because you always knew deep down that it made no fucking sense. i liked it okay but it definitely was a let down

For me the show was more like, someone wants to do a puzzle with you and says it probably wont fit together properly but it will still be fun to do, then as you do the puzzle you find that everything is fitting and you want to finish it, then you realize that the last few pieces are missing, but then she says "wait theres a few more pieces left in the box i think we can finish it" then when your happy she says "wait no, its just a few pieces of jagged cardboard" but then you try to shape that cardboard into the pieces your missing and draw the missing parts of the picture on them in a feeble attempt to finish the puzzle without the pieces